It is a fact of history that the Spanish conquerors were the most brutal ‘colonizers’ in history. What they did to the Aztecs and Mayans is utterly unforgivable. Yet, what has always been a contentious part, is whether the Aztec and Mayan practice of human sacrifice was as widespread and horrifying as the Spanish conquerors said.
Well, it looks like it was:
In recent years archaeologists have been uncovering mounting physical evidence that corroborates the Spanish accounts in substance, if not number.
Using high-tech forensic tools, archaeologists are proving that pre-Hispanic sacrifices often involved children and a broad array of intentionally brutal killing methods.
More here.
HatTip: LatinoPundit.
The horror, the horror! I believe that one shouldn’t judge past events with 21st century eyes. Speacially when the death of the many in those cultures had other purposes. Inasmuch as today there are people being put to death in wars, electric chairs and decapitations without a purpose at all it makes sense at the very least that death had a better purpose than those being put death today.
Ps: you can’t apply christian values either, the Aztec or Mayans had other deities to deal with. Todays God demands blood in other ways and just as christians fear the wrath of God so to did the Mayans and Aztec feared the wrath of their gods as well.
I don’t care what god you worship (christian/muslim/or aztec and mayen), or what morals were in place at the time, if you burn/sacrifice children (6 yr old children), you are doing something wrong, PERIOD.
This is another reason why I think moral/cultural relativism is a bankrupt philosophy.
Good point Alfonso, I agree with you. It is good that Christianity and Islam have outlawed the sacrifice of children. Even in ancient babylonian cultures and others (if you read the bible), children sacrifice was common. Some scholars believe that the story of Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac (in the bible), but then sacrficing an animal instead (because God appeared to him in the burning bush), reveals that God was teaching people NOT to engage in human sacrifice anymore.
Hmmm. I can’t agree with that thinking. It is simply to absolute and a tad extreme. Even if you are thinking as a human being with morals that only have in place for the past 2000 years. How can you judge them wrong? What higher authority have you to deem so? And why does it bother you so much? One, you weren’t there and Archeology is based, like any imperical science, in speculation. It is curious that those who doubt cannot manage to doubt doubt.
This is yet another reason why I can’t be a moral/cultural relativist. It is because of the double standards that are always involved.
Let me turn this around Julio, and ask you the same questions. Do you think that the Spanish Conquerors were (objectively) wrong in what they did to the Aztec and Mayan cultures? If you do, why? I mean, based on your standards, they were not (objectively) wrong. Most, if not all, of what they did was perfectly acceptable within the culture they were in, they did not violate any big culture morals. In fact, conquering and pilaging other land, raping the women, and even forcing people into slavery was all generally acceptable back than. So how do you judge the Spanish wrong, yet not the Aztecs?
You can’t, either you accept moral/cultural relativism completely, and deny either party did anything objectively wrong, or you deny moral/cultural relativism completely and accept that both parties did something objectively wrong. Those are your choices…but to use one when it benefits you, and use the other when it benefits you is not only philosophically absurd, but hypocritical.
For the record, as the second sentence in this blog indicates, I take the latter position; both the Spanish and Aztec/Mayan were wrong.
Funny the discussion has turned along the terms of who should be judging who and comparing it with modern day horrors. There is a way to dismiss actions without passing judgements and we can circumvent this whole discussion.
We can simply say that the sacrifice of children in other cultures is a disagreeable act, that serves disagreeable gods. Likewise, the act of war is disagreeable no matter what morality on such is based.
Hey LP,
So you choose the moral/relativistic approach…and that is fine. But I doubt many really mean that when they say that the Spanish Conquerors were wrong. They (and I bet Julio would agree with me here) seem to imply they were absolutely wrong, objectively wrong, regardless of whether or not it was an acceptable practice at the time. In other words, people (rightly) don’t just ‘disagree’ with what the Conquerors did, they imply they violated an absolute transcendental moral law.
I’m saying that is fine (and I agree), lets just be consistent and apply the same standard towards the Aztec/Mayan.
And as for your comparison with war, I don’t see the parallel. Practically all religions believe that killing 6 year old children for sacrifice is inherently wrong, on the other hand, practically all religions teach that there is a time and a place for war. War, unlike killing 6 year old children, is not always wrong.
You may say some wars are wrong, and that is fine. But to say the two are viewed the same by religions (especially mainstream ones) is to go too far.
Well, the way I was thinking is that one cannot apply a moral system that has less than 2000 years in place and even less so in the Americas, little over 500 I believe, to events that knew nothing of the concepts of morality as we know them today. But I think the topic has taken turns that these kind of conversations tend to do, anyways, thanks for the feedback Mr Hispani Pundit.
PS: Chronologically speaking and just to add fuel to the burning fire, the Spaniards did have the same moral system with which you are basing your reproach to the killing of children in Mesoamerica. Yet the Mesoamericans did not. Does that change anything? All am saying is that the word ‘wrong’ is used here with its modern connotations and that perhaps do not apply to 13th century Mesoamerica, that’s all.
“Victims had their hearts cut out or were decapitated, shot full of arrows, clawed, sliced to death, stoned, skinned, buried alive or tossed from the tops of temples”.
–The news article
“All am saying is that the word ‘wrong’ is used here with its modern connotations and that perhaps do not apply to 13th century Mesoamerica, that’s
all”.
–Julio Sueco
I thought everyone understood pain. If the ancient Aztecs and Mayans did not understand “pain” why did they pick on children that couldn’t defend themselves? If they loved their gods so much, why didn’t they offer themselves?
Ignorance is not an excuse in this scenario. Surely back in those days……..they understood pain. Surely they understood that touching fire would burn them or touching a pointed arrow would cause a tear in the skin and hurt.
I don’t get you Julio.
The Spaniards didn’t sacrifice women and children, the Aztec/Mayan did. Given the standards at the time, what the Spaniards did to the Aztec/Mayan was overall reasonable and acceptable. Just like it was reasonable and acceptable (even encouraged) to sacrifice women and children in Aztec/Mayan culture.
All am saying is that the word ‘wrong’ is used here with its modern connotations and that perhaps do not apply to 13th century Mesoamerica, that’s all.
That’s fine, if you’re going to take the moral/cultural relativistic approach, apply it equally to both. I take the objective/absolute approach, and I am applying it to both (both were ‘wrong’).
Thanks for stopping by, you are welcome here anytime.
Your absolutist view baffles me inasmuch as you make it sound as if you were there to witness the spanish-aztec encounter. You say, in absolutist fashion, that spanirds did not kill children. I am not challenging you to provide proof, but I do question the veracity of that statement because you contradict yourself there. You adamantly insist that both people were wrong yet you solemnly absolve the spaniards on the account that they did not kill children. It happened so long ago, how can one be absolutely certain that spaniards did not engage in infanticide? Just wondering, and am sorry for bugging and insisting on this topic when you have so many new other interesting stuff to read, but it is interesting to see the difference of opinion.
Were sorda saying the same thing…we just disagree on the degrees involved.
It is a historical fact that the Spaniards did some horrendous things to the Aztec/Mayan people. It is also, as the article above demonstrates, a historical fact that the Aztec/Mayan people did some horrendous things to their own people (specifically women and children). Just sticking to the facts here, and not moving into the purely hypothetical, we can say that *both* groups of people did something you and I personally disagree with. That we agree on.
However, when talking to people about this, especially my Mexican/Hispanic/Latino brothers and sisters, they don’t speak about the Spanish, and their actions, as if they *merely* did something disagreeable. They (rightly, I still agree here) speak about the actions of the Spanish as if they committed an act so vile that it transcends cultural norms, that they violated an absolute transcendental moral law.
In other words, they speak about the act as if it is an absolute, objective, moral law to not treat other cultures the way the Spanish did the Aztec/Mayan, and since the Spanish violated that law, they were wrong regardless of the norms at the time.
All is fine up to this point…we are completely in agreement. But where the disagreement lies, is that usually this same person will than turn around, and not apply the same standard to the Aztec/Mayan. When the topic of women and children sacrifice is brought up, they will say what you say now, ‘well, that was acceptable to the culture at the time, so we can’t judge them with our current morality’. Well, if that is the case, how do you judge the Spanish? They were overall within their cultural boundaries to do what they did to the Aztec/Mayan people also? If your philosophy dictates to give cultures breaks depending on the circumstances of the time, those breaks should be applied equally, to both Spanish and Aztec/Mayan. If your philosophy dictates that there are morals that transcend cultures, than both cultures should be judged by those same morals. You can’t use one standard in one instance, and another standard in another instance.
This is the whole moral/relativistic vs. moral/absolutist philosophy issue. You can pick one or the other…but you can’t mix the two.
Me entiendes?
I thought this speech by Mark Helprin was relevant to the discussion:
[exerpt]
http://www.claremont.org/writings/020524helprin.html
Also, I’ve got some more Helprin quotes here if anyone is interested:
http://www.economicswithaface.com/weblog/archives/2004/11/helprin_and_art.html
I get angry thinking killing kids can only be a practice enjoyed by sickos who find themselves in power and advocate it and make the followers suffer, and then I cool down and think if killing kids will bring rain, it’s a necessary evil. Then I think: Yo tambien hablo de la rosa (Carballido) and I want to watch a couple of kids derail a freight train.
Whichever works for me in my life, be it absolutist or relativist approach, I’m gonna use (with a leaning towards both). But it’s hard to look at Aztec sacrificial practices and aplly either- the statute of limitation ran out 500 years ago. But because I don’t believe killing kids brings rain, it’s not something I would support and is definitely something I work against.
But you probably are also overall satisfied with the land you have, and have no desire to find gold, spread your faith, or even destroy some ‘heathens’ either. So is it safe to assume you use the same standard equally?
Land literally, no, but it’s a dream. Land in the sense of comfort? Well, I gotta plan. Spread my faith? There’s nothing to spread. And destroy “heathens”? Come on- the term is assimilate! Yes, that is a chunk of my life, but the assimilation door works both ways. But I’m not sure I understand the question regarding the Spanish. Though a few were genocidal 500 years ago, I don’t think the majority of those particular regional ethnicities share the same genocidal/assimilationist designs these days. Let’s face it- my reality lies on January 27, 2005. Hurting kids or eliminating those that like to hurt kids 500 years ago is out of my jurisdiction for judgment. I’m stuck presently and locally learning from the common sense, however horrifying it may be- from the past- and avoiding it in the future. Damn! You got me in a weak moment! Absolutist. But gimme 5 minutes and I’ll be back to relativism. Hence the Carballido reference- the processual analyis concept that negates frameworks on truth.
OK, now the wife is denying the Aztecs never sacrificed children, even the ones who cried to appease the gods: “All shared one feature: serious cavities, abscesses or bone infections painful enough to make them cry.” She’s Tlahuica, so it’s time I withdraw from the conversation. But at this point of withdrawing from the conversation, my modern lens claims that during a drought and no doubt intense hunger, if there’s any predisposition for getting rid of stress factors like crying children, for instance appeasing old Huitzilopotchle himself, you end up in the black. See! I told you my relativist lens would come back!
But my wife continues to deny any of this took place. I’m going to have to regress to absolutist again and claim that keeping the wife happy is the moral thing to do- regardless the culture or the mix.
LOL. I think you made the right decision.
Thanks for stopping by.
Please consider, murder and rape were objected by catholicism at the time. The fault with the Spanish is that they sent the worst to colonize the land, criminals, the insane, etc.
i think you all have smaller penises than myself
cristianity is the way to go! aztecs were following the wrong religion and being blasphemous!
I stumbled across this link. Funny that no one has brought up the modern day (2005) practice of child sacrifice that takes place every day in the United States. To the pagan god, Molech, children are murdered while still in the womb. It is child sacrifice. The alter is selifishness. The god is Molech.
The battle rages on.
F*** the Mayans
Go save some Americans…
I’m so happy that Spaniards came to my neck of the jungle. I don’t judge them, their militaristic ways, or whatever it is that some people don’t like about them.
Let me simply state, that if Spaniards didn’t bring the Holy Eucharist to my ancestors, I’d probably be hunting all of you down and eating you. Yes, I’m that competitive by nature. But, as God’s Grace would have it, I’d rather please the Virgin Mary than eat human flesh…so you can all let out a collective sigh of relief. I’m not going to eat you.
Human sacrifice and cannibalism do not satiate the desires of the human heart. Only Jesus can do that. I’ve tried a lot of other anti-eucharist secular garbage out there (not cannibalism, of course) but only the Sacraments will work.
If you doubt the “nature” of Hispanic souls and the satanic attraction they’d find without Jesus, just examine a few photos of the worst tatooed maffia members and criminal societies. They think they love God, Jesus, and the Virgin Mary, but none of these criminals have heard an unperverted message of Christ. The devil never left this part of the world. Satan still thinks that we want to return to our old ways. When I see the naked aggression of such a criminal mindset, I cannot ignore the Value of Christianity. I hope none of us ignore His Message.
According to the ethical standards of the moral relativists, respecting the beliefs, mores and practices of other peoples and cultures is the inviolable commandment. The Aztecs and Mayans were committing barbaric acts…. by our standards, yes…. but they were not imposing their beliefs and ways on the Spanish. The Spanish, however, were judging and imposing their beliefs and cultural norms on them, thus transgressing that “sacred” commandment. This is what makes Western Culture so offensive and shameful to these good (liberal?), university people of Massachusetts, referred to in the speech by Mark Helprin in the comment 16 by Peter..
Of course, we are put in the position of having imposed on us the ethical standards of the moral relativists. I know…. there is no escaping hypocrisy when morals are left up us. I’ve written a short essay on a related subject. Read it at:
http://nomanisland321.blogspot.com/2005/11/humanist-heritage-one-has-heard.html
Whos to say God and jesus is correct or the right way? If the Aztec or Mayans conquered the world, Their believes would be common along with Human sacrifices and those who beleived it was wrong would be looked at like wierdos just like now-a-days when people believe sacrifices are normal. Right now Christianity, The bible, GOD, are the true problems of the world and the cause of all killing.
Well that is the rub Greg, some of us believe that human sacrifice, the intentional killing of innocent people, is so against objective morality that the two scenarios wouldn’t have been the same.
Had the Aztecs conquered the world and human sacrifice became the norm, that world would have been morally inferior to one that had no human sacrifice.
I have been researching on the origins and decline of the Maya civilization for a term paper. I of course, found much of the mateial disturbing and hard to read. When you humanize the people and animals, understanding that they too are human, you are baffled by such brutality in a civilization. I have always had problems with innocents being killed, and those who can’t speak for themselves, such as animals. I can’t stand the fact that their is such evil in the world, but the point is…there is and will always be evil. You can fight it all your life and make almost no difference. It’s a harsh fact, but it’s reality. Anyway, I have a big issue with people pretending they know what Mayan decendants are going through right now. They are descriminated against because of their ancestory, which is completely ridiculous because it’s not as if they are performing these acts right now. The past is in the past…get over it.
I am a decendant of the Guarani people, a tribe of people who were located mostly in Paraguy, South America. They practiced cannibalism, and even ate their own dead. Many were reformed by the Jesuit priests who delt specifically with the Guarani people. Yes, my ancestors did many things I do not believe in. But that past doesn’t hold me down, I didn’t eat anybody so who cares? People dwell on these things too long. I was lucky enough to have been adopted at a young age into a wonderful American family, and I have a good life. I don’t cry about my great-great-great-great grandfather eating people, it was his culture, and before the Guarani people knew Christ, most likely they didn’t know any better.
The point is, focus on something you can actually change. You can’t go back in a time machine and change the Mayans, so who cares what your opinion on an ancient sacred act is. Focus on the horrors going on right now, the war in Iraq…where innocents are being blown up right now, or Africa and the truth about diamonds…come on people no one is being eaten right now. Focus on something a little more legit.
I would’ve thought that at least someone here would’ve known of the fact that the spaniards threw babies in the air and let them fall onto their bayonets, and also fed the indigenous babies to their war dogs. Aside from that, we have American soldiers who slaughtered men, women ,and children of native american tribes, who were not engaged in a battle of any sorts. They then cut off the womens nipples and made them into necklaces, and cut out parts of their vaginas to wear on their hats. And before you denounce these claims, do me a favor and research it. It is a known fact. And what religion do you think these American soldiers practiced? What the european nations did to the americas was genocide, a native american holocausr. Which gets no type of compassion compared to other events. Think about this the next time you hear about the washington redskins.
hello actually sacrificing for aztecs would be a great honour many aztec warriors voulentered to be sacraficed to the gods in serious rituals as far as the not so serious ones im guessing thats where the children came up =\
Did the children volunteer too?
“You can fight it all your life and make almost no difference.”
-Nadia Benitez
“To the one starfish you throw back into the ocean, it makes all the difference.”
-Thomas Thorton
Personally my conviction of faith falls somewhere between humanist and Christian - the former surfacing whenever I realize that Yahweh has allowed moments of hell to exist on earth - and like Ms. Benitez I too have gone into emotional fits when I read or hear about such behavior in the past and present.
To be honest I have an enduring soft spot for the theory behind moral relativism, but at least one single absolute evil seems obvious to me: torturing the innocent. No circumstance in existence warrants such a thing, even if it would save a city, region, country, planet or galaxy. And most often such acts are done with far less grand a goal, like to provide a luxury or satisfy a devilish psychosis.
But I digress.
Pax,
Stat
Who are we to pass judgement onto a civilization we have never fully understood? We impose war on other countries willingly accept that innocent men, women and children die by bombs and guns paid by money we have entrusted to our governments. We say: “This is the price for peace and freedom.” “We have to make great sacrifices.”
Before any of us points their finger at others you should consider how many third world children have to sacrifice their childhood making cheap shoes for internet philosophers fighting their little wars about relativistic and realistic views of the world.
Why don’t you just go about and try to make this world better? It’s hard to fight windmills.. And maybe that’s the reason why an Aztec mother would give her child for sacrifice. she had no choice but to accept her and her child’s fate.
We all give in to the powers that appear so much greater than us. look outside of the box and you will find out that we are no better than any other culture, past or present. we just have other standards.
I didn’t read any of the responses, but its kind of hard to listen to someone who doesn’t realize that the Aztec civilization came long after the Mayans, and that the Spanish conquerors only saw the ruins of the Mayan world. Wtf lrn2research.
The Spaniards were murdering liars.
Who would want to believe their lies?
You?
Together with the Dutch, English, French, Portuguese, etc., they literally wiped out the Aztecs, Cherokees, Iroquois, Cheyennes, Apaches, etc., respectively. Good thing they didn’t try wiping out Zonggou.
Probably they wiped out Atlantis and others, too. Geeze! Those Vikings sure were mean, too!! And the Japanese! Man! They were cruel!
Oh, yeah, the Israelites, led by Joshua. Darn! They were murdering immigrants!! Geeze!!
The Germans! Man, oh, man! I know you heard about them, too!!
Those people were mean!!!
…and lets not forget the Aztecs! Now, they were really cruel!
ya betcha!
u bet!