Ask Oso. I’ve been told he’s one a them “limousine liberals.”

And you’re actually willing to go further than I am, because I’m not willing to sanction polygamy, simply because I see no evidence that it’s a good arrangement, and every bit of evidence that it’s harmful. Same goes for polyamory–if a group of adults want to consider themselves part of a group marriage, that’s their business, but I’m not inclined to give it the sanction of the state by calling it a marriage. Or a civil union.

The case for gay marriage is a simple one: Marriage benefits society in many ways, not just raising children. Married people are more likely to own real estate, hold down jobs, less likely to committ crimes, more likely to be monogamous (and therefore less likely to spread STDs). They are more likely to be involved in the community.

There’s also the fair’s-fair argument: Heterosexuals are allowed to marry and homosexual should be allowed to marry, too. People who love each other should be allowed to marry, unless there’s some compelling reason why they shouldn’t.

My true objection with gay marriage has always been that they haven’t proven their case. In other words, the heterosexual marriage has some legitimate claim to be identified under law, after all, it is where (healthy) children come from, it is where societies next generation should be reared, and it is fundamental, mother and father, are the minimum needed to produce children. Heterosexual unions that don’t produce children also benefit society, they serve as examples of relationships that do produce children, they help shape the culture in the direction where children should be raised. But why should the government care that two members of the same sex declare their love for each other? It shouldn’t, it is none of the governments business. It is really no different than members of the opposite sex declaring a lifelong friendship, if that friendship is intrinsically void of children, that union is meaningless to the governments end, and therefore, that union should not have equal benefits that come with marriage.

In other words, the heterosexual union has everything all other unions have, and more. Hence they should be held at a higher recognition, because they are scientifically, at a higher status than all other relationships. I do not look at this on a moral objection basis. Personally, I can careless what people do, as long as their actions don’t harm me, they can sleep with their brothers or sisters, with members of the same sex, and even with multiple partners, and I don’t care. But when they ask for equal status to something else, well, I expect them to give at least equal benefits.

Those who advocate incest marriage and first cousin marriage could make the same claims as those that advocate homosexual marriage do, but they don’t produce the same benefits that heterosexual marriages do, after all they intrinsically can’t produce healthy children. Hence, they shouldn’t be allowed the ‘marriage status’ (however, if what you say is true, we can pre-screen, than I would have no problem giving those who pass the screen the ‘marriage’ status). Those who advocate polygamous marriage could also make the same claims as those that advocate homosexual marriage do, but they don’t produce the same benefits that heterosexual marriages do either, after all they, while able to produce children, they add extra factors in that reduce the benefits to society (polygamous marriages cause more jealousy, less stable, etc) and therefore they should also not receive equal status (however, I do think that the polygamous marriage claim is stronger than the homosexual marriage claim).

In addition, for clarity, allow me to throw in another hypothetical, one also mentioned above. Lets say that I wanted to create a ‘best friend’ union between members of the opposite sex. Say that me and a female friend of mine wanted to declare our eternal friendship to each other, to be there for one another through thick and thin, and to always be friends. However, what this union does not include is sexual contact; in other words, we are friends in the traditional meaning of the word. Now suppose that we got enough political clout to try and force the government to recognize us, and call this union a marriage. How would you react to such a proposal? I would react the same way, I may be willing to give them hospital visitation rights, and maybe some other benefits here and there, but clearly a non-sexual union between a male and female is none of the governments business, it is unimportant whether two people of the opposite sex declare lifelong friendship or not. In addition, this union can not be given equal status as a traditional marriage because, after all, they do not produce the same benefits to society as a traditional marriage.

So my objection to gay marriage is not based on the morality of the act. In fact, as a healthy young heterosexual male, I find polygamy very appealing :-), but I still can’t justify it as a government recognized union on equal status as a heterosexual union. My objection to gay marriage is and always has been that a gay union, much like many other unions, is not equal to a heterosexual union in one or more important attributes, and therefore should not receive the same benefits (the primary benefit being called the same thing, marriage).

Furthermore, in addition to lacking in the same benefits, gay unions also have an added cost to society, which is to say that if we redefine marriage to include gay unions, we have now dramatically changed the meaning of marriage to have absolutely no connection to procreation. Now, you may say that marriage has already been at most loosely tied to procreation, but allowing gay marriage breaks that link like nothing in the past. What effect will this have on society? What message does a marriage that has no link to procreation send to the next generation of children, specifically those growing up with this new definition of marriage? Will it lead to more out of wedlock births? Harvard Social Anthropologist Stanley Kurtz sure thinks so.

So in conclusion, it is not the morality of gay marriage, and for that matter, the morality of incest, or polygamy, that I base my objections on, it is based on the simple fact that they are not equal in fundamental areas; hence they should not be given equal status.

You keep arguing your the oppositions point. This is not a biological issue, it is a morality issue.

For example, the biological danger for first cousins and siblings marrying is the risk of creating children with genetic disorder like cystic fybrosis, tay-sachs disease, etc. With the advances in research on the human genome,these disorders can be screened before hand and you can determine if both parents are carriers of these recessive genes. If they are not both carriers of these diseases, then no risk. Biologically, why not marry. Or a better question, if two unrelated people are both carriers of these recessive genes, by that logic why should these people be allowed to marry. Most states including the one I married in, require a blood test for couples before issuing a marriage certificate. This is done to detect these diseases. However, if both parties are discovered to be carriers, they are not banned from marriage, just simply advised about the risks of procreating.

As far as your equation of polygamy with homosexual marriage reveals your true objection to gay marriage. A marraige between a man with multiple wives or a woman with multiple husbands can of course bear healthy children.

Mitch has eloquantly and personally illustrated that marriages of opposite sex couples without the possibility of bearing children are legal and just as valid as marriages of couples with children.

The problems with both incest and polygamy is that we find them immoral and deviant. Your examples clearly point out that the problem most opponents have with gay marriage is you find homosexuality immoral and something that the state should not condone. You equate homosexuality as deviant just like polygamy and incest. You feel that deviants like these should not raise children. Fine, in the case of homosexuals I disagree but respect your rights to your personal opinion, but don’t try to interject psuedo-science in this debate to justify your moral objections to same sex marriage.

As a general note regarding modern conservatism. This is the current ploy that goes on with the right wing to get the votes of the non-religious moderates. Creationism does not fly, lets come up with a new theory, intellegent design that sounds scientific bt really at its core is the antithesis of the scientific method. The vast preponderance of scientific research shows that the increased emmissions of greenhouse gases causes increased global temparatures, trot out some dubious scientist somewhere who argues the other side and take his side as the correct interpeation. Lets have the politicans edit all of the scientists reports to take out the points that argue against the other side. Sounds like science to me. However, it is manipulations, it is taking the exception to prove the rules.

Whether you have children or don’t have children does not change the fact that a man and women are inherently ordered towards producing children, incest, first cousins, and homosexual unions are not.

Nonsense. Incest and first cousins can and frequently do produce children. Someone I know very well is the product of two two grandparents who were first cousins, it was commonplace in the culture they came from.

We forbid incestuous and first-cousin marriage because, as a society, we have deemed it to be wrong.

Tell me than Mitch, would you also support polygamy? Would you support sibling marriages too? If not, why not? What is your limitation on marriage, and why.

No, I do not support polygamy because every society in which it has been tried has also been terribly oppressive of women.

I’m not aware of any society that has practiced widespread support of sibling marriages, with the exception of some royal families. However, we do know that sexual relations between siblings generally turn out badly.

But those aren’t the real reasons I oppose sibling marriage. I oppose it because I believe it to be morally wrong.

Now, let me ask you a question: If homosexual marriage is harmful to society, please demonstrate to me how this harm has demonstrated itself. Homosexual marriage has been legal in the state of Massachusetts for a year now; how as Massachusetts been harmed?

Of course, you might come back and say to me that a year isn’t long enough for same-sex marriage to display its harmful effects. And that’s fair enough. How else would you go about demonstrating that homosexual marriage is harmful?

But here, to explain this better, it’s easier to turn the questions towards you. Tell me than Mitch, would you also support polygamy? Would you support sibling marriages too? If not, why not? What is your limitation on marriage, and why.