As most of you already know, I am by most standards pro-immigration. I strongly believe that immigration, on net total, is an overall boom to this country, both economically and culturally. I don’t just mean legal immigrants either, I also believe this is the case with illegal immigrants as well (and I also don’t just mean Mexican immigrants either, and I am also referring to other immigrants as well, both low skilled and high skilled).
However, given the heated debates going on lately, I thought it’d be a good idea to give those of you who are also pro-immigration a chance to see the other sides argument. Although I don’t agree with those who take the anti-immigration stance, I do concede that some of them make persuasive points. While there certainly are borderline or full-blown racists arguing against immigration, many of them are not, and some even make me step back and re-evaluate my stance (although still, in the end, not persuading me to change my view). So I link below to some of the arguments I have considered well thought out and fair minded (although not necessarily ultimately agreeing with them), by some of the people I consider to be well rounded and whom I respect.
Thomas Sowell: An ugly reality
Peggy Noonan: Patriots, Then and Now
Herbert Meyer: Why Americans Hate This ‘Immigration’ Debate
George Will: Guard the Borders–And Face Facts with commentary by Q and O
Last but certainly not least, is the rights political satirist, Ann Coulter,
Ann Coulter: Brown is the new black
It’s Friday, sit back, have lunch, and take some time to atleast understand the other sides valid concerns.
Update: Thomas Sowell has more.
HP, I think there’s a big distinction between “illegal” immigration and regular immigration. I do agree with you that the government should be encouraging more “legal” immigration and increase it significantly.
This whole debate I believe has been dishonestly protrait by the pro-illegal immigration folks as though most Americans are against immigration. I think most Americans are for immigration. They are just against those who favor giving amnesty for illegals. After all, where’s the fairness to those people around the world who took the time and apply the right way? People right now are waiting their turn to come into this country. It seems very unfair and most people would naturally be against those that “skip the line”.
Homie,
Lets not pretend that immigration policy for all contries are the same. Immigration is a political issue…and there are many factors that determine if one is legal on not legal…SO if we are to interrogate this issue of fairness…start from the get go and look at discriminatory policies that preference some kinds of groups over others….
“After all, where’s the fairness to those people around the world who took the time and apply the right way? People right now are waiting their turn to come into this country. It seems very unfair and most people would naturally be against those that “skip the line”.”
Israel,
I can understand your point: laws should be respected and illegal immigrants clearly break the law. Fine. But the case is usually much more complicated than that.
Take my family for example, they all came to the United States from Guerrero, Mexico illegally. Guerrero, Mexico, especially the high farm areas where my family is from, is extremely poor. My dad constantly reminds us of how he had to go hungry for several days when he was in Mexico, how he even ate food off the floor sometimes because he was so hungry. Then one day, he and a couple of his brothers decided to come to the United States. Eventually bringing many more brothers and sisters with them.
Now, in circumstances like this, do you really expect, can you really blame, the immigrants for ‘breaking the law’? I mean, yes, laws should be respected, and certainly if my family robbed banks, killed people, or did any other more serious crimes to pay for food, then they should definitely be punished. But simply crossing a border in search of a better life for them and their families, is that really a crime that should be seriously punished?
Yes, there are many people waiting in line to get into this country, and they are clearly being cut by illegal immigrants, but even then, most of those people waiting in line are people that have the resources to wait in line. They do not face serious consequences if they are denied entry like several illegal immigrants do.
We talk about how bad working conditions are for illegal immigrants working in the United States. How hard the farm laborer has to work, or the heat the landscapers, the construction workers, etc, have to endure to make a living. But these immigrants are only doing those jobs because the situations and working conditions back home are even worse. In such situations, can you really blame them for crossing over illegally? Would you be so sure that you would not do the same in those circumstances?
I respect the view that laws should be obeyed and those who disobey them should be punished. Certainly that is the general rule and should be encouraged, but with regard to immigration sometimes there are more pressing factors that should also be taken into account.
No hay hacernos pendejos, Hispanic, I think we all know that immigration “law” (that is, the exact statutes that proclaim it illegal to cross the border into the United States) is pretty laughable. It’s foolish to put it on the same level as a “law” that prohibits, say, murder, armed robbery or car-theft. As difficult and life-altering as it is to “jump the line”, for the habitual immigrant, no law is being broken: an obstacle is merely (albeit with great difficulty) overcome. An understanding of this fact is what is missing in this “debate”. Crossing a border to make a better living in a racist and unknown country where one runs the risk of being scape-goated and blamed for a lion’s share of societal ills (too numerous to mention)while one toils invisibly and frightened at jobs the “natives” scoff at is HARDLY equivalent to a premeditated ganking of your neighbor’s resources. (I am not going to mystify the migrant or apologize for the knuckleheads and degenerates who end up in the jails because that would just be retarded.)
That’s why I hate it when we refer to these people as “illegals” or their act as “illegal immigration”. The shit is migration and no more “legal” or “illegal”, in the grand scheme of things, than when the caribou make the trek across the tundra or when the birds return to their spring skies.
Thanks for ruining my lunch.
Peace in your barrio.
I definitely agree that crossing the border is not comparable to ‘murder, armed robbery or car-theft’ (and I said so above), but to go as far as to say that it is not a law at all, is to go too far, IMO.
Every country - whether you agree with the law or not, whether you think the foundation is sound or not - has the right to set its own immigration standards. I may (and do) think the United States immigration standards could be greatly improved, but to say that because I disagree with them they are not real laws is to go too far.
HP, I respect what your dad had to do. Hell, all people in his position would have done the same thing. I blame the federal government for allowing the current set of circumstances that has brought us to this point. However, I merely pose the question about “skipping the line” because we do have a set of laws that must be followed. Albeit, we don’t agree with.
Gerardo, I never said that the system is fair. However, we don’t break the laws. We follow them and we can petition to have them change. Anything else just invites anarchy and that is what we are seeing at the borders.
I guess I must be a pendejo cuz I just dont see how the law is laughable. Serio your whole post was actually laughable….”no law is being broken” what the hell. And really if it is this bad hear then why are they coming, risking there lives…HAHA that was funny…
I feel dirty. I just saw that you linked to … ew. I can’t even WRITE her name.
Every country has a right to secure its borders and control who comes in.
I think it is hypocritical of Mexico to think the US should just open the border and give automatic citizenship to all.
Does Mexico have this policy with the people from Guatemala,El Salvador or Honduras ?
You can’t even own land in Mexico unless you are a Mexican citizen!
Having said that, I don’t begrudge anybody seeking a better life for themselves and their family, I am an immigrant myself!
My family came to this country seeking a better life.
I have absolutely no problem in having a path to citizenship for those who work hard and make positive contributions. But if you are not here to contribute “a que venistes?”
I have had family members deported for criminal behavior. I have absolutely no problem with this.
To me “es un privilegio ser Americano”, I will never take it for granted.
I feel dirty. I just saw that you linked to … ew. I can’t even WRITE her name.
Do you mean Ann Coulter? Oh man, I can’t believe you don’t like her. She is one of my favorite political satirists of all. I read all her stuff. Btw, my other favorite political satirist is Bill Maher, even though he is extremely liberal, I really enjoy watching his program. And when he happens to have Ann Coulter on as well, well, it’s definitely a stay at home and watch TV night that night.
CindyLu: I am with you girl. A.C. (can’t bring myself to write her whole name out!) is not a satirist. She is a mean, mean and nasty person. UGH!
I am with HP. Ann Coulter is one of my favorites. I used to watch Politically Incorrect but the over the years I have Bill Maher has gone way over to the left
I am with you on immigration. Its not really amnesty that the senate is talking about. It is just a change in the law. The illegal immigrants should have to pay a fine for breaking the law (just like hundreds of other laws that don’t require jail time if broken).
I agree that the people who are waiting for citizenship should not be put to the back of the line. Easy to solve. Anyone currently waiting for legal residence gets admitted before the people with expired/no visas. people with pending applications in foreign countries who would qualify for admittance go ahead too. Then the people who are illegal.
Also, this amnesty issue is B.S. anyway. The Media Regurgitators act as if the government never allows amnesty programs for people who break the law. States and the IRS frequently have tax amnesty program where tax cheats can pay old outstanding income tax without any penalties.
Q’Onda HP!! Just stopping by to say hi. This debate was bound to happen, but I just can’t help think that it came in a time to distract Americans from other issues.
Slds!!
The law books of the United States are full of civil offenses that are punishable by fines. Tax evasion, traffic fines, zoning violations, etc. People who are guilty of these offenses do not do jail time - but we don’t claim that these laws provide “amnesty”, do we? Of course not. These laws have penalties in the form of fines. Similarly, all of the proposals before Congress that provide a “path” to legality contain provisions for penalizing with (hefty) fines those that are here illegally as part of that “path”. No one has proposed that illegals should get off scott-free (which is what an amnesty is). Quite to the to the contrary, penalties have been spelled out in some detail. Those hard-line Republicans who insist on referring to these plans as “amnesty” are either confused or are trying to confuse.
In the long run, I can only hope that the heated rhetoric and blatant scapegoating being drummed up by these folks will cause hispanics to wake up and vote them out of office. They certainly deserve it.
(quick fact check: Ramon, you can own land in México, just not in certain areas namely border and ocean)
The real immigration “problem” is that the law-makers fail to acknowledge the unique relationship the U.S. has with México. We share a common history, people, and continental landmass. The “problem” is that our immigration laws affect every country the same, and don’t take into account that our neigbors warrant a special relationship. The general atmosphere of xenophobia mixed with concerns over national security have complicated immigration law and primarily caused the situation we are currently in. People will always move across the land. People should be able to travel through the U.S., visit, go to Disneyland or whatever. The rules for living and working come next and I do believe should be strict. The problem is that it is extremely difficult to do any of those things if you are from a poor region of México because your travel visa will be denied every time.
Thomas Sowell doesnt take into account the vast difference between immigration policy of european nations and the United States. The reason for tension among guest workers in european countries in which they reside is that they are not recognized as part of the country, they dont have the opportunity of becoming citizens of that country thus they are still attached to their country of origin far more than someone who has the ability to become a citizen of a new country. If that option were taken away from immigrants entering this country or those already within, than it might be more likely for unrest to happen. Until then I dont see riots and terrorism becoming a reality. Furthermore Sowell compares differences of eras of immigration by military collaboration yet he forgets the wars of today, he forgets about the immigrants and children of immigrants within the American military at this moment fighting in Iraq putting their lives in danger to obtain citizenship and show their love for this country with dedication to its armed forces. Perhaps Sowell has not read the facts about assimilation of the latin/hispanic culture and that 70% of third generation speaks english exclusively.
As for Coulter
“but thanks to Teddy Kennedy’s 1965 immigration law, we no longer favor skilled workers from developed nations, but instead favor unskilled immigrants from the Third World”
Doesnt she realize why the US needs as she puts it “unskilled” workers and why they have come from the third world? supply and demand. A law didnt change that.
Hp, if you like Coulters wit, youll love Al Franken.
I do, I think Al Franken is very funny too. Although he does seem to be more of a hot head than Coulter, but that’s okay.
As for as Sowell’s article goes, it is my understanding that several of the Muslim French rioters are French citizens, they just happen to be really poor citizens.
I think the fundamental question that should be posed to all those who are demonstrating and/or favor the demonstrations is: Does a sovereign country have a right and a duty to enact and enforce immigration laws?
And if this country is as racist as El Profe seems to think, one could be excused for questioning the sanity of foreigners risking life and limb to travel to a country where they run the risk “of being scape-goated and blamed for a lion’s share of societal ills.” Furthermore, if he is correct, many of those “racists” who are against illegal immigration are doing the undocumented immigrants a favor by making it more difficult for them to stay in a country that is so intolerant.
The nonsensical rhetoric exhibited by the emotional driven Latino Left is unbelievable; and worse, is detrimental to those who they claim to support.
I strongly believe that immigration, on net total, is an overall boom to this country, both economically and culturally. — HP
I agree with that, HP.
See below……
Immigrants are not a drain on government finances. The NAS study found that the typical immigrant and his or her offspring will pay a net $80,000 more in taxes during their lifetimes than they collect in government services. For immigrants with college degrees, the net fiscal return is $198,000. It is true that low-skilled immigrants and refugees tend to use welfare more than the typical “native” household, but the 1996 Welfare Reform Act made it much more difficult for newcomers to collect welfare. As a result, immigrant use of welfare has declined in recent years along with overall welfare rolls. (D. Griswold)
Illegal immigration is exactly that, illegal entrance to a country.And the person entering a country without the approval of that country is breaking the law. The circumstances that made that person break the law do not protect them from the responsabilities of their action, and the country should not reward them by granting permanent residency.
Many of us immigrants have made this country a country of great opportunities, because we came with one idea: to make this country better that it was before. We learned our common language-English- We learned and obey the common laws-We learned our Constitution -that protect us more that any other from our own countries-and we swore allegiance to
th flag when we took our naturalization papers. I never forgot who I am , because that is what is so great about my new country, it accepts me with my own religion,my own customs and above all it gave me refuge when no other country wanted me. I as many other immigrants before me did not use this country as a way of making money without assimilating its common language and culture.
To all the illegal immigrants and to the legal families of the illegals, stop your whining . If you care so much for your illegal family members, you should have helped them get their documentation in order when they were in their own country, like many other individuals are doing at this time, and waiting their turn. Then, they would have entered this country poor but proud, instead of demanding rights that they never earned, and, what is even sadder, that they never had as legal residents of their native countries.
I do not consider myself anti-immigrant, after all some of my ancestors got here that way, the rest walked over from Siberia on the Berring Landbridge at the end of the Last Ice Age.
BUT I take umbrage to this part of your statement
If you apporve of millions of Aliens entering this country Illegally and maybe deciding what other Laws of ours they do not have to obey?
Shout that off the rooftops son, knock yourself OUT there is nothing that I could say or do that would have more ifluence on the electorate as this attitude of yours.
Not in the way you want though I would wager.
Those who cannot be trusted in one thing, may not be trustworthy in others.
“Those who cannot be trusted in one thing, may not be trustworthy in others.”
-Dan Kauffman
LOL So profound.
I’d like to add that, those who can be trusted in one thing, may not be trustworthy in others.
WTF!?
I think that the simple act of entering the United States without permission cannot possibly be seen as vile an act as stealing a car or murdering a person. Why can’t intelligent people understand that? For all the high-falootin’ wordplay evident in this “debate”, it seems that the very “debate” hinges on this and I’m tired of it. Americans will not be happy until their greed brings the current world to an end.
My partner and his friends took part in the rally in Dallas. There was a lone man standing in the crowd with a sign reading “Stop Illegal Immigration”. To my mind, knowing the struggles of my friends, the only response to that is “Allow Legal Immigration”. Nobody wants to be illegal (an important factor that the hardliners fail to acknowledge), but the way the laws are set up has left 12 million with no option. (I know there are a few Marie Antoinettes out there who want to say, Let them stay home.) I read online the requirements for coming into the country legally, and it became clear to me why so many are here illegally. the qualifications are so narrow and limiting that it’s practically impossible for anyone without money, family here leagally, or special skills that set them apart to have any legal recourse. Why are we as a nation so eager to reject the tired, the poor, the huddled masses?
My cöworker says, We can’t let everybody in. True, but who is it we are trying to keep out? Obviously, the terrorists, the drug dealers, the habitual and violent criminals–a tiny percentage of those who want to be here. But what about the rest? Why is the poor, honest, struggling farmer with kids to feed not presented with a legal option to come here and find work? It’s not, as someone above said, a matter of “taking the time” to go through the process. If he doesn’t have family here, if he doesn’t already have a job here, if marriage is not an option, if he hasn’t invested at least $50,000 dollars in some US interest, then he’s just screwed. And that, folks, is the reason we have so many illegal aliens in this country.
just a note on the language issue:
my friend gustavo lets me know how well his friends and family speak english by telling me how long they’ve been in the country. if they’ve been here more than 14 months, i know that they speak well enough to have a conversation. if they’ve been here less than 6 months, i have to stretch my tiny spanish vocabulary.
my partner says that he always admired americans because when they came to mexico they weren’t afraid to try out their really bad spanish. mexicans, on the other hand, fear the embarrasment of expessing themselves badly, and will keep mum if they are not sure how to put something. I’ve heard people criticize mexicans for this, saying that they know more english than they let on. it would be more accurate to say that they know more english than they realize.
my friend Raul came here legally because his father is american. His father was born in Texas, lived there for 20 years, moved to Chihuahua and got married, and then moved back to the US in his senior years. He’s in his 70s now, having spent more than half his life in Texas, and he never learned to speak english.
Well, i come from a mexican family. my parents are both full mexican and i was born here. i hate to see that many of my family members cant come to the united States, because they are illegal. When will this ever stop? i hate how some people are racist againts illegal mexicans, calling them “illegal aliens” they are just like you.! they are hunmans and should have the right to anything they want just like a typicall american does.this is a big problem now days. and it hurts many people. in many cases parents get seperated from their children no matte rhow old they are. this si really sad. this needs to stop. if it does ill thank god and because its smething that not only i want, but what many other people around the world want.it would be better for everybody to just be free, because the only reason why illegal mexicans come to this country, is to seek a better life for themselves and their families.