Jan4th2007

Quote Of The Day

“Although intended as a bridge to full English comprehension, bilingual education has become in practice a substitute for it. Because bilingualism has actually become monolingualism, it has hindered not only Hispanic progress in education, but more broadly Hispanic assimilation into American life” — former Democratic Congressman Herman Badillo, author of the original federal law mandating bilingual education, in his new book “One Nation, One Standard.”

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18 Responses to “Quote Of The Day”


  1. Gravatar Icon 1 LaurenceB Jan 4th, 2007 at 7:02 am

    The natural tendency of an immigrant is to assimilate into both the adopted culture and the language. The history of the U.S. has shown repeatedly that, if left to themselves, immigrants will assimilate well over the course of a generation or two.

    Currently, the greatest threat to this historical precedent is the spate of misguided attempts from the right to reduce illegal immigration. As a whole, these efforts discourage assimilation, and worsen the downside of the immigration equation.

    Twenty years ago, poorly conceived inititiatives from the left, such as bilingual education and efforts to protect domestic union workers, were the greatest impediment to assimilation.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

  2. Gravatar Icon 2 HispanicPundit Jan 4th, 2007 at 11:39 am

    My problem with bilingual education is not the assimilation part, but the efficiency part - you simply learn english alot faster in an english only environment than a bilingual environment, especially at a young age.

    On your point though, I agree, certainly the hard rights (and hard lefts, ie, environmentalist and unions) resistance to immigrants, specifically from Mexico, doesn’t help the assimilation cause.

  3. Gravatar Icon 3 gustavo Jan 4th, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    What kind of bilingual program are you talking about? There are many kinds. Dual immersion programs, which I love, allow students to learn two languages starting in Kindergarten. I take it you are for “sink or swim”…studies have shown that this isn’t very effective at all.

  4. Gravatar Icon 4 Kelly Jan 4th, 2007 at 6:11 pm

    “you simply learn english alot faster in an english only environment than a bilingual environment, especially at a young age.”

    Where on earth would you get that information from? What theory classes or field work classes have you taken and studied? Bilingual education can be exceptional as long as you have a qualified Spanish speaking teacher and a very good instructional model that spirals and builds upon through the years.

    I’m with Gustavo on looking at the models. I know that you joke about your ESL class that you took as a child but remember that that is not the only model. There are many different models.You can’t lump all of the different models together and make a blanket statement that bilingual ed is bad. Dual immersion is absolutely the very best model. In my opinion, it is far superior to English only instruction.

  5. Gravatar Icon 5 HispanicPundit Jan 4th, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    Gustavo,

    Studies have also shown that bilingual education is not very effective, see here. The question is, which one is more effective? I am more persuaded by the english only groups arguments.

    I am not against teaching children more than one language, but teaching them english should be a schools first priority, and bilingual education does a poor job of that. Children are outstanding language learners and “sink or swim” may sound harsh, but it’s the way we all learned our first language and did pretty well because of it, history and evolution is on the ‘english only’ sides here.

  6. Gravatar Icon 6 HispanicPundit Jan 4th, 2007 at 6:26 pm

    Kelly,

    You bring up another argument against bilingual education when you write,

    Bilingual education can be exceptional as long as you have a qualified Spanish speaking teacher and a very good instructional model that spirals and builds upon through the years.

    I grant that in theory, under certain ideal circumstances, given the right funding, the right teacher, the right classroom environment, and the right teacher/student ratio, you may find a bilingual education model that is superior to the english only model. But in a world of trade offs, in a world of scarce resources, you don’t look at the ideal - you look at the likely.

    Given our educational system, one that is inefficient, bureaucratic, and in some instances, lacking the necessary funds, reality often times does, and will, fall short of the ideal. And when that reality is inferior to english only, choosing english only is a better choice than shooting for an ideal that is not likely to ever materialize.

    In the debate between english only vs. bilingual, too many times those who support bilingual have this ideal situation in their head, but what they should really be looking at is how that ideal situation is really played out, and when they do, they will see bilingual education for what it is - a failure that has for far too long left many Hispanic students behind academically.

  7. Gravatar Icon 7 Kelly Jan 4th, 2007 at 6:26 pm

    So you see…this is where this argument is ao insulting to me. GRD and I are the experts/professionals here but still you want to talk to me about “studies show…” ¡Por favor! Learning English is the number one reason for bilingual education not to teach them Spanish.

    Whatever dude, I am done with you on this topic. I should have known better than to comment. It would have been easier for me to smack my head into a brick wall!

  8. Gravatar Icon 8 HispanicPundit Jan 4th, 2007 at 6:44 pm

    Kelly,

    I don’t fully understand your complaint here, are you saying that because you teach bilingual education (something that makes you more a special interest in this discussion than an unbiased commentor, but I digress), that somehow bilingual education should be void from criticism? Or that because of such you should have the final say in this topic? Or that studies, some of which take a much wider sample space than a classroom, or a school, or even a state, should be subordinate to your personal experience? Or are you saying that only those who teach bilingual education can ‘rise to your level’ and criticize it? An odd statement, if that is what you mean. That is like saying only those who work in charter schools, or in schools that accept vouchers, can criticize charter schools or vouchers. Would you be persuaded by an argument that said, “if you don’t work in a voucher school, than you can’t say it won’t work’. All discussions would be reduced to ‘appeals to authority’. Is that what you are saying? Please elaborate, I am truly confused by your statement.

    Remember, I am not criticizing your teaching skills, or your ability to teach bilingual education. My views on bilingual education are general, and are views not against individual teachers or students, but on the efficiency of the program itself.

  9. Gravatar Icon 9 Fernando Jan 4th, 2007 at 9:21 pm

    LaurenceB now what makes you think that it’s the hard right?

    Bilingual education is as I agree with HP a hindrance for Latino’s in general to assimilate with in the nation, and hence keep a group under the control of the welfare state “that being the democrats”.

    ————————————————————
    For DECADES people like me “the hard right” where trying to get “STATE” talking with “INS” to keep out terrorists from this country.

    But being that anything that smacked of securing the borders was considered discriminatory by the democrats, nothing got done “hence 9/11″.

    Imagine “just in theory” a republican seeing an opportunity
    When it comes to illegal immigration “using democrat tactics” to secure our southern border?

    Of course it’s just a theory.

  10. Gravatar Icon 10 gustavo Jan 4th, 2007 at 9:36 pm

    Hp: I disagree that “sink or swim” is the most effective way for non-english speakers to learn english. Even though I was a product of a “sink or swim” classroom and I was successful (somewhat anyways) doesn’t mean that it’s going to work for everyone (there is always an exception to the rule)…test scores, graduation/drop-out rates for immigrant students can show the ineffectiveness of “sink or swim” models.

    Fernando: Those damn terrorist loving democrats!

  11. Gravatar Icon 11 HispanicPundit Jan 4th, 2007 at 10:44 pm

    I don’t make the claim that it is going to work for everyone, only that it is the best possible option - works for more people than the alternatives.

    Remember, as bad as you make “sink or swim” sound, it is the de facto method for many other non-spanish speaking immigrants, be they Asian, European, or Middle Eastern, and they have done just fine historically and currently, at learning english. It is primarily raza that request the special treatment.

  12. Gravatar Icon 12 Kjerringa mot Strommen Jan 5th, 2007 at 6:47 am

    HP: Is there an underlying reason you persist in applying Spanish capitalization rules in English (”english”, “non-spanish speaking…”)? Is it that you did not have the advantage of the superior dual-immersion education where you would have seen the structure of both languages side by side? Or is it simply a subtle strike against assimilation? I’m as guilty as the next one of operating in Spanglish, but it is not a necessary outcome of living in a bilingual environment. What I saw of dual immersion in Buenos Aires resulted in mastery of both languages. My granddaughter is a third-grade student in a dual-immersion public school in California and is cognitively aware of the differences in the languages and is actively in the process of sorting them out. She is aware of linguistic issues my “native-speaker” high school students are just sorting out in English and Spanish as they enter their first Spanish classes, having received that famous “sink-or swim” submersion approach to learning English.

  13. Gravatar Icon 13 HispanicPundit Jan 5th, 2007 at 12:00 pm

    My ESL experience was certainly deficient, but I don’t judge current ESL programs on that, I base my disagreement with current ESL programs on three things.

    First, english only just makes more intuitive sense to me. Children, those young developing minds, are designed to pick up languages quickly and efficiently. Everybody in the world, whether bilingual or monolingual, learned their first language via “sink or swim”. It is the way evolution has done it throughout history, and the way it is done now. Even bilingual teachers learned their first language in the ’sink or swim’ fashion. So ’sink or swim’ has evolution, experience, and nature on its side.

    Second, bilingual education only works better than ’sink or swim’ under certain hard to meet circumstances. As Kelly said, “Bilingual education can be exceptional as long as you have a qualified Spanish speaking teacher and a very good instructional model that spirals and builds upon through the years.”(emphasis added) In reality, these circumstances are very hard to meet, as I’m sure you know. In an education system that has trouble merely finding qualified science teachers, it becomes almost impossible to consistently meet the high requirements to make bilingual education work. English only, on the other hand, does not come with such high constraints, almost anybody can do it and indeed it has been done and is still done throughout our education system with good results.

    Third, personal experience. I have a 10 year old brother (I also have a 6 year old brother, but he has always been in english only), and a 15 year old sister that are currently in public schools and have went through the Los Angeles Unified School districts ‘bilingual program’. Yet when you compare my siblings to their cousins, many of which are in english only curriculums, you can see the difference. The comparisons are apples to apples, as the cousins are the same age, the same economic status, the same school system, and the same family environment - being the children of immigrants they all speak only spanish in the home. This is why many years ago my dad, who is now much more for english only education than I am, had a strong change of heart and demanded his kids be placed in english only programs - he saw the difference the curriculums make with his own eyes.

    These are the reasons why I am for english only education. I should also note here that while I am for english only education, I am not one of those who holds a negative view of the ’spanishization of america’. When I see ads in spanish, commercials in spanish, more public schools, private schools and universities teaching spanish, US citizens intermixing more spanish into their english, and other forms of ’spanishization’, it brings a smile to my face, not a frown. My only point here is in addressing the most efficient means for children to learn english, whether they learn another language is a separate issue, and an issue that should also be encouraged.

  14. Gravatar Icon 14 LaurenceB Jan 5th, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    After having read the comments, I have to admit that I don’t know this issue as well as I would like. Since there appear to be some people here with some knowledge of the subject, could someone please enlighten me a bit?

    I would like to know if “dual language immersion” is the same as “bilingual education”, or if it a particular strain thereof. If it is only one flavor of “bilingual education”, I would like to know how it differs from others, and what the others are.

    In my mind, “bilingual education” refers specifically to the practice of softening an immigrant child’s introduction to school by offering classes in his or her native language. I am not a fan of this idea - especially for very young children. I agree with HP that “sink and swim” is preferable - although I could be persuaded to think otherwise given the right argument. But am I mistaken about the definition of “bilingual education”? Is that not how it works?

    Thanks!

  15. Gravatar Icon 15 HispanicPundit Jan 5th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
  16. Gravatar Icon 16 Louis Pagan Jan 5th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    Learn English in school; learn Spanish at home. Period.

  17. Gravatar Icon 17 HispanicPundit Jan 5th, 2007 at 6:57 pm

    Hey, es mi tocallo LP, welcome back to the blogosphere amigo.

  18. Gravatar Icon 18 Kjerringa mot Strommen Jan 7th, 2007 at 3:11 pm

    I take issue with the concept that learning a first language from infancy is “sink or swim”, hardly to be compared with a 6 or 9 or 15 year old who does not yet speak English being thrown in a classroom where English is the language of instruction and the language other students have been learning since infancy.

    Infants enter a world in which language exposure is rich, intense, repetitive, usually presented in a loving manner. At this point, little is expected of them linguistically and each approximation is rewarded richly. Hardly sink or swim, except for those infants and children who for reasons neurological, chemical, or otherwise are born with conditions that prevent them from fully benefitting from this rich, nurturing environment.

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