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	<title>Comments on: Quote Of The Day</title>
	<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:09:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kjerringa mot Strommen</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130998</link>
		<dc:creator>Kjerringa mot Strommen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 23:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130998</guid>
		<description>I take issue with the concept that learning a first language from infancy is "sink or swim", hardly to be compared with a 6 or 9 or 15 year old who does not yet speak English being thrown in a classroom where English is the language of instruction and the language other students have been learning since infancy.

Infants enter a world in which language exposure is rich, intense, repetitive, usually presented in a loving manner.  At this point, little is expected of them linguistically and each approximation is rewarded richly.  Hardly sink or swim, except for those infants and children who for reasons neurological, chemical, or otherwise are born with conditions that prevent them from fully benefitting from this rich, nurturing environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take issue with the concept that learning a first language from infancy is &#8220;sink or swim&#8221;, hardly to be compared with a 6 or 9 or 15 year old who does not yet speak English being thrown in a classroom where English is the language of instruction and the language other students have been learning since infancy.</p>
<p>Infants enter a world in which language exposure is rich, intense, repetitive, usually presented in a loving manner.  At this point, little is expected of them linguistically and each approximation is rewarded richly.  Hardly sink or swim, except for those infants and children who for reasons neurological, chemical, or otherwise are born with conditions that prevent them from fully benefitting from this rich, nurturing environment.</p>
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		<title>By: HispanicPundit</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130451</link>
		<dc:creator>HispanicPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 02:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130451</guid>
		<description>Hey, es mi tocallo LP, welcome back to the blogosphere amigo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, es mi tocallo LP, welcome back to the blogosphere amigo.</p>
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		<title>By: Louis Pagan</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130353</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis Pagan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 21:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130353</guid>
		<description>Learn English in school; learn Spanish at home.  Period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Learn English in school; learn Spanish at home.  Period.</p>
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		<title>By: HispanicPundit</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130341</link>
		<dc:creator>HispanicPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130341</guid>
		<description>LaurenceB,

&lt;a href="http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/education/20061023-9999-1m23spanish.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Here is a somewhat sympathetic description of what it is.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LaurenceB,</p>
<p><a href="http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/education/20061023-9999-1m23spanish.html" rel="nofollow">Here is a somewhat sympathetic description of what it is.</a></p>
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		<title>By: LaurenceB</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130331</link>
		<dc:creator>LaurenceB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130331</guid>
		<description>After having read the comments, I have to admit that I don't know this issue as well as I would like.  Since there appear to be some people here with some knowledge of the subject, could someone please enlighten me a bit?

I would like to know if "dual language immersion" is the same as "bilingual education", or if it a particular strain thereof.  If it is only one flavor of "bilingual education", I would like to know how it differs from others, and what the others are.

In my mind, "bilingual education" refers specifically to the practice of softening an immigrant child's introduction to school by offering classes in his or her native language.  I am not a fan of this idea - especially for very young children.  I agree with HP that "sink and swim" is preferable - although I could be persuaded to think otherwise given the right argument.  But am I mistaken about the definition of "bilingual education"?  Is that not how it works?

Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After having read the comments, I have to admit that I don&#8217;t know this issue as well as I would like.  Since there appear to be some people here with some knowledge of the subject, could someone please enlighten me a bit?</p>
<p>I would like to know if &#8220;dual language immersion&#8221; is the same as &#8220;bilingual education&#8221;, or if it a particular strain thereof.  If it is only one flavor of &#8220;bilingual education&#8221;, I would like to know how it differs from others, and what the others are.</p>
<p>In my mind, &#8220;bilingual education&#8221; refers specifically to the practice of softening an immigrant child&#8217;s introduction to school by offering classes in his or her native language.  I am not a fan of this idea - especially for very young children.  I agree with HP that &#8220;sink and swim&#8221; is preferable - although I could be persuaded to think otherwise given the right argument.  But am I mistaken about the definition of &#8220;bilingual education&#8221;?  Is that not how it works?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: HispanicPundit</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130325</link>
		<dc:creator>HispanicPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130325</guid>
		<description>My ESL experience was certainly deficient, but I don't judge current ESL programs on that, I base my disagreement with current ESL programs on three things.

First, english only just makes more intuitive sense to me. Children, those young developing minds, are designed to pick up languages quickly and efficiently. Everybody in the world, whether bilingual or monolingual, learned their first language via "sink or swim". It is the way evolution has done it throughout history, and the way it is done now. Even bilingual teachers learned their first language in the 'sink or swim' fashion. So 'sink or swim' has evolution, experience, and nature on its side.

Second, bilingual education only works better than 'sink or swim' under certain hard to meet circumstances. As Kelly said, "Bilingual education can be exceptional as long as you have a qualified Spanish speaking teacher and a very good instructional model that spirals and builds upon through the years."(emphasis added) In reality, these circumstances are very hard to meet, as I'm sure you know. In an education system that has trouble merely finding qualified science teachers, it becomes almost impossible to consistently meet the high requirements to make bilingual education work. English only, on the other hand, does not come with such high constraints, almost anybody can do it and indeed it has been done and is still done throughout our education system with good results.

Third, personal experience. I have a 10 year old brother (I also have a 6 year old brother, but he has always been in english only), and a 15 year old sister that are currently in public schools and have went through the Los Angeles Unified School districts 'bilingual program'. Yet when you compare my siblings to their cousins, many of which are in english only curriculums, you can see the difference. The comparisons are apples to apples, as the cousins are the same age, the same economic status, the same school system, and the same family environment - being the children of immigrants they all speak only spanish in the home. This is why many years ago my dad, who is now much more for english only education than I am, had a strong change of heart and demanded his kids be placed in english only programs - he saw the difference the curriculums make with his own eyes.

These are the reasons why I am for english only education. I should also note here that while I am for english only education, I am not one of those who holds a negative view of the 'spanishization of america'. When I see ads in spanish, commercials in spanish, more public schools, private schools and universities teaching spanish, US citizens intermixing more spanish into their english, and other forms of 'spanishization', it brings a smile to my face, not a frown. My only point here is in addressing the most efficient means for children to learn english, whether they learn another language is a separate issue, and an issue that should also be encouraged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My ESL experience was certainly deficient, but I don&#8217;t judge current ESL programs on that, I base my disagreement with current ESL programs on three things.</p>
<p>First, english only just makes more intuitive sense to me. Children, those young developing minds, are designed to pick up languages quickly and efficiently. Everybody in the world, whether bilingual or monolingual, learned their first language via &#8220;sink or swim&#8221;. It is the way evolution has done it throughout history, and the way it is done now. Even bilingual teachers learned their first language in the &#8217;sink or swim&#8217; fashion. So &#8217;sink or swim&#8217; has evolution, experience, and nature on its side.</p>
<p>Second, bilingual education only works better than &#8217;sink or swim&#8217; under certain hard to meet circumstances. As Kelly said, &#8220;Bilingual education can be exceptional as long as you have a qualified Spanish speaking teacher and a very good instructional model that spirals and builds upon through the years.&#8221;(emphasis added) In reality, these circumstances are very hard to meet, as I&#8217;m sure you know. In an education system that has trouble merely finding qualified science teachers, it becomes almost impossible to consistently meet the high requirements to make bilingual education work. English only, on the other hand, does not come with such high constraints, almost anybody can do it and indeed it has been done and is still done throughout our education system with good results.</p>
<p>Third, personal experience. I have a 10 year old brother (I also have a 6 year old brother, but he has always been in english only), and a 15 year old sister that are currently in public schools and have went through the Los Angeles Unified School districts &#8216;bilingual program&#8217;. Yet when you compare my siblings to their cousins, many of which are in english only curriculums, you can see the difference. The comparisons are apples to apples, as the cousins are the same age, the same economic status, the same school system, and the same family environment - being the children of immigrants they all speak only spanish in the home. This is why many years ago my dad, who is now much more for english only education than I am, had a strong change of heart and demanded his kids be placed in english only programs - he saw the difference the curriculums make with his own eyes.</p>
<p>These are the reasons why I am for english only education. I should also note here that while I am for english only education, I am not one of those who holds a negative view of the &#8217;spanishization of america&#8217;. When I see ads in spanish, commercials in spanish, more public schools, private schools and universities teaching spanish, US citizens intermixing more spanish into their english, and other forms of &#8217;spanishization&#8217;, it brings a smile to my face, not a frown. My only point here is in addressing the most efficient means for children to learn english, whether they learn another language is a separate issue, and an issue that should also be encouraged.</p>
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		<title>By: Kjerringa mot Strommen</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130182</link>
		<dc:creator>Kjerringa mot Strommen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-130182</guid>
		<description>HP: Is there an underlying reason you persist in applying Spanish capitalization rules in English ("english", "non-spanish speaking...")?  Is it that you did not have the advantage of the superior dual-immersion education where you would have seen the structure of both languages side by side?  Or is it simply a subtle strike against assimilation?  I'm as guilty as the next one of operating in Spanglish, but it is not a necessary outcome of living in a bilingual environment.  What I saw of dual immersion in Buenos Aires resulted in mastery of both languages.  My granddaughter is a third-grade student in a dual-immersion public school in California and is cognitively aware of the differences in the languages and is actively in the process of sorting them out.  She is aware of linguistic issues my "native-speaker" high school students are just sorting out in English and Spanish as they enter their first Spanish classes, having received that famous "sink-or swim" submersion approach to learning English.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HP: Is there an underlying reason you persist in applying Spanish capitalization rules in English (&#8221;english&#8221;, &#8220;non-spanish speaking&#8230;&#8221;)?  Is it that you did not have the advantage of the superior dual-immersion education where you would have seen the structure of both languages side by side?  Or is it simply a subtle strike against assimilation?  I&#8217;m as guilty as the next one of operating in Spanglish, but it is not a necessary outcome of living in a bilingual environment.  What I saw of dual immersion in Buenos Aires resulted in mastery of both languages.  My granddaughter is a third-grade student in a dual-immersion public school in California and is cognitively aware of the differences in the languages and is actively in the process of sorting them out.  She is aware of linguistic issues my &#8220;native-speaker&#8221; high school students are just sorting out in English and Spanish as they enter their first Spanish classes, having received that famous &#8220;sink-or swim&#8221; submersion approach to learning English.</p>
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		<title>By: HispanicPundit</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-129714</link>
		<dc:creator>HispanicPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 06:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-129714</guid>
		<description>I don't make the claim that it is going to work for everyone, only that it is the best possible option - works for more people than the alternatives.

Remember, as bad as you make "sink or swim" sound, it is the de facto method for many other non-spanish speaking immigrants, be they Asian, European, or Middle Eastern, and they have done just fine historically and currently, at learning english. It is primarily raza that request the special treatment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t make the claim that it is going to work for everyone, only that it is the best possible option - works for more people than the alternatives.</p>
<p>Remember, as bad as you make &#8220;sink or swim&#8221; sound, it is the de facto method for many other non-spanish speaking immigrants, be they Asian, European, or Middle Eastern, and they have done just fine historically and currently, at learning english. It is primarily raza that request the special treatment.</p>
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		<title>By: gustavo</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-129705</link>
		<dc:creator>gustavo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 05:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-129705</guid>
		<description>Hp: I disagree that "sink or swim" is the most effective way for non-english speakers to learn english. Even though I was a product of a  "sink or swim" classroom and I was successful (somewhat anyways) doesn't mean that it's going to work for everyone (there is always an exception to the rule)...test scores, graduation/drop-out rates for immigrant students can show the ineffectiveness of "sink or swim" models.  

Fernando: Those damn terrorist loving democrats!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hp: I disagree that &#8220;sink or swim&#8221; is the most effective way for non-english speakers to learn english. Even though I was a product of a  &#8220;sink or swim&#8221; classroom and I was successful (somewhat anyways) doesn&#8217;t mean that it&#8217;s going to work for everyone (there is always an exception to the rule)&#8230;test scores, graduation/drop-out rates for immigrant students can show the ineffectiveness of &#8220;sink or swim&#8221; models.  </p>
<p>Fernando: Those damn terrorist loving democrats!</p>
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		<title>By: Fernando</title>
		<link>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-129679</link>
		<dc:creator>Fernando</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 05:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/01/04/quote-of-the-day-420/#comment-129679</guid>
		<description>LaurenceB now what makes you think that it's the hard right?

Bilingual education is as I agree with HP a hindrance for Latino’s in general to assimilate with in the nation, and hence keep a group under the control of the welfare state “that being the democrats”.

------------------------------------------------------------
  For DECADES people like me "the hard right" where trying to get "STATE" talking with "INS" to keep out terrorists from this country.

 But being that anything that smacked of securing the borders was considered discriminatory by the democrats, nothing got done "hence 9/11".

 Imagine "just in theory" a republican seeing an opportunity
When it comes to illegal immigration "using democrat tactics" to secure our southern border?

 Of course it's just a theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LaurenceB now what makes you think that it&#8217;s the hard right?</p>
<p>Bilingual education is as I agree with HP a hindrance for Latino’s in general to assimilate with in the nation, and hence keep a group under the control of the welfare state “that being the democrats”.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
  For DECADES people like me &#8220;the hard right&#8221; where trying to get &#8220;STATE&#8221; talking with &#8220;INS&#8221; to keep out terrorists from this country.</p>
<p> But being that anything that smacked of securing the borders was considered discriminatory by the democrats, nothing got done &#8220;hence 9/11&#8243;.</p>
<p> Imagine &#8220;just in theory&#8221; a republican seeing an opportunity<br />
When it comes to illegal immigration &#8220;using democrat tactics&#8221; to secure our southern border?</p>
<p> Of course it&#8217;s just a theory.</p>
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